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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7470
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Posted - 2014.09.04 23:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
I want this game to be as balanced as possible so don't resort to posting comments saying Q.Q or that I hate heavies and I digress.
When heavies received their turn speed buff ages ago that's when heavies started appearing on the OP radar in forum threads.
Before they had tons and tons of HP. More HP than even now with an HMG that would tear you a new one but they were slow...not only were they slow but they couldn't turn on a dime like they do now.
This is my main issue with heavies, secondary issue being the complete ease of firing without worrying about overheat or spool up time but that's a different topic for a different day.
The reason Heavy suits received their bonus to Turning Speed in the first place was due to scout issues at the time and their uselessness against them at the time and I do vaguely remember one of the DEVs saying that the turning speed buff was just a temporary buff until the matter could be resolved.
Well, Rattati it looks like that time is now. Heavies are in a good place now with health, the scout issue is no longer present (albeit replaced by a different one) and the HMG now has a devastating amount of damage enough to swat anything that comes close to it (which is the way it should be) but all that with a high turning speed and ease of the weapon is not an ideal form of balance.
Just to get things more into context this is just like a Battleship in EVE having their Large Turrets have the same tracking speed as a small frigate turret. If you are familiar with EVE then you know how ridiculously absurd the idea is and would make running smaller ships in the game useless.
This can still translate roughly into DUST even with it's players being capable of independent movement.
- Currently Heavies have the Highest Health in the Game along with the Highest Damaging infantry weapons in the Game
From a gaming standpoint for balance those two traits translate into Slower movement Low Mag Size and or Long Lock on time / target acquisition
Sentinels can serve a broad purpose and the purpose depends on each race. Currently the Caldari serves more of a purpose of Long range Anti Material Support while the Amarr Sentinel is more of a Armor tank to soak up tons of damage. The Minmatar meanwhile would be the ideal heavy people have in minds with the HMG compatibility.
What I have in mind is a reduction of Turning speed from lowest to highest: Amarr Caldari Gallente Minmatar
You can also see that this correlates well with each races ideal battle methods and this would still allow the Minmatar Heavies to completely wreck suits just like Jove intended. As a bonus, not only does this change create balance but it also discourages the use of light weapons on sentinel suits without completely invalidating Light Weapons on Sentinel Frames.
I have to wrap it up now to pick up the kid from practice but please keep in mind that I have ideas for balance to the other suits as well. This is just a topic about heavies.
Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks
Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7475
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Posted - 2014.09.05 01:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Jacques Cayton II wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:I want this game to be as balanced as possible so don't resort to posting comments saying Q.Q or that I hate heavies and I digress.
When heavies received their turn speed buff ages ago that's when heavies started appearing on the OP radar in forum threads.
Before they had tons and tons of HP. More HP than even now with an HMG that would tear you a new one but they were slow...not only were they slow but they couldn't turn on a dime like they do now.
This is my main issue with heavies, secondary issue being the complete ease of firing without worrying about overheat or spool up time but that's a different topic for a different day.
The reason Heavy suits received their bonus to Turning Speed in the first place was due to scout issues at the time and their uselessness against them at the time and I do vaguely remember one of the DEVs saying that the turning speed buff was just a temporary buff until the matter could be resolved.
Well, Rattati it looks like that time is now. Heavies are in a good place now with health, the scout issue is no longer present (albeit replaced by a different one) and the HMG now has a devastating amount of damage enough to swat anything that comes close to it (which is the way it should be) but all that with a high turning speed and ease of the weapon is not an ideal form of balance.
Just to get things more into context this is just like a Battleship in EVE having their Large Turrets have the same tracking speed as a small frigate turret. If you are familiar with EVE then you know how ridiculously absurd the idea is and would make running smaller ships in the game useless.
This can still translate roughly into DUST even with it's players being capable of independent movement.
- Currently Heavies have the Highest Health in the Game along with the Highest Damaging infantry weapons in the Game
From a gaming standpoint for balance those two traits translate into Slower movement Low Mag Size and or Long Lock on time / target acquisition
Sentinels can serve a broad purpose and the purpose depends on each race. Currently the Caldari serves more of a purpose of Long range Anti Material Support while the Amarr Sentinel is more of a Armor tank to soak up tons of damage. The Minmatar meanwhile would be the ideal heavy people have in minds with the HMG compatibility.
What I have in mind is a reduction of Turning speed from lowest to highest: Amarr Caldari Gallente Minmatar
You can also see that this correlates well with each races ideal battle methods and this would still allow the Minmatar Heavies to completely wreck suits just like Jove intended. As a bonus, not only does this change create balance but it also discourages the use of light weapons on sentinel suits without completely invalidating Light Weapons on Sentinel Frames.
I have to wrap it up now to pick up the kid from practice but please keep in mind that I have ideas for balance to the other suits as well. This is just a topic about heavies. Wouldn't it be Amarr Gallente Caldari Minmatar You know since gallente heavies can tank so much better. Besides it's a bad idea then all the scouts will become op. The only thing that keeps scouts in check are heavies take that away and scoutapolsa You've already been corrected by that other guy about the races but if we were to have it in EVE terms the Caldari should be slow with tons of shields which they kinda have down right but they need a little bit more shielding. but the scout issue is a different story entirely, they dont just rip heavies, they rip apart everyone. Armor stacking scouts need to be fixed Scout hit detection needs to be fixed cloaking as well but if we were to have the idea of waiting for y to get tunned before you tune x in this situation is very silly as each one is overlord status. It would be best to tine both of these at the same time.
Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks
Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7475
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Posted - 2014.09.05 02:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
Michael Arck wrote:Ehh, I agree with the consensus. Sentinels need to be able to have a fighting chance against a backstabbing scout. group a sentinel with a squad or at least another person.
This is supposed to be a team based game no? Where everything has a counter to it.
We are acting as if heavies are supposed to be fully efficient on their own which is NOT the way it was intended to be.
Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks
Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7479
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Posted - 2014.09.05 04:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
castba wrote:If heavy turn speed is decreased, so should the assault and logi's. Why should medium frames be able to turn at the same speed as a light frame?
I love the want to go back to when a heavy could not track a scout strafing left and right... let alone simply walking around them - which you can still do to get that 3rd shotgun shot off unless the heavy is jump turning
Seriously, if you can't take down a current build heavy on your own you have either a) engaged on the heavy's terms or b) not thought about what you are doing. As predicted a random casual appears and assumes it as Q.Q and thinks I can't do anything.
Random pub blueberry is not worth it.
Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks
Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7479
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Posted - 2014.09.05 04:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
It would probably be best if we see what Rattati wants heavies to be.
Maybe the idea of Heavy has changed from Battleship to Super Jove Omni ship status but Idk, I'm very old school with suit purposes.
Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks
Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7483
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Posted - 2014.09.05 04:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
Vitharr Foebane wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:It would probably be best if we see what Rattati wants heavies to be.
Maybe the idea of Heavy has changed from Battleship to Super Jove Omni ship status but Idk, I'm very old school with suit purposes.
Keep in mind I'm not even a scout nor have a Light suit, I am an Assault. In my proposed changes Heavies will still shred everything else in fairly the same manner. So I take it you never played the heavy when we had the turn cap? You know when all it took to kill a heavy was a bit of strafing and a militia SMG. I'd rather not go back to those dark days if you don't mind... Oh no, I was very much a heavy back then and I don't even want it reduced that much.
Back then it was also incredibly dumb to travel alone in a heavy suit for obvious reasons that you have just mentioned. Take the Bowl Map. To enter the A (which was in a semi bowl shape) you could either run up the hill or go behind it (going behind it was a bad idea because it would leave you exposed) So what you'd do it have a heavy take point pair him with a Logi and have your assaults right behind him letting the heavy soak up and deal the damage.
Solo heavies didn't exist back then at all unless they were defending or just new people that didn't know better.
Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks
Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7485
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Posted - 2014.09.05 04:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zatara Rought wrote:TheEnd762 wrote:Heavies have a defense against scouts. It's called "even grazing them in the foot with a burst from the HMG". Unless you're stacking proto damage mods on a proto shotgun AND aiming for the head, most heavies take 2+ shots to take out. burst hmg's are getting nerfed. I assumed he meant any one second burst from any HMG.
Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks
Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7485
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Posted - 2014.09.05 05:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
castba wrote:Sgt Kirk wrote:castba wrote:If heavy turn speed is decreased, so should the assault and logi's. Why should medium frames be able to turn at the same speed as a light frame?
I love the want to go back to when a heavy could not track a scout strafing left and right... let alone simply walking around them - which you can still do to get that 3rd shotgun shot off unless the heavy is jump turning
Seriously, if you can't take down a current build heavy on your own you have either a) engaged on the heavy's terms or b) not thought about what you are doing. As predicted a random casual appears and assumes it as Q.Q and thinks I can't do anything. Random pub blueberry is not worth it. As usual, Kirk thinking that he is above another player. Anyway, if it is not a heavy **** and moan, what exactly is this thread about if you are not also calling for a relative turn speed decrease for medium suits as well? Or would that handicap your precious gal assault? If your brain is incapable of understanding someone wanting Balance for the sake of Balance then I can't help you.
Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks
Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7487
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Posted - 2014.09.05 06:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
castba wrote: Yes, and being unable to track the suit which is the hard counter to the heavy creates balance? Maybe you are the one that needs to think a bit more.
You ever heard about the game rock-paper-scissors?
You see in this game everything is powerful and weak at the same time.
Rock is powerful against scissors but surprisingly powerless against paper Paper is guaranteed to lose against scissors but is sure to win against rock Scissors are the end all to be all to to paper but get wrecked by the rock.
Add in more objects to the game and give the pieces free will and independant skill levels for each individual piece and you have what this game was supposed to be.
This game was pitched to me as the thinking man's shooter two years back this is what appealed to me, the fact that teamwork was a requirement to play the game was a huge breath of fresh air to an RTS gamer that became sick of the simplicity and narrow mindedness of FPS games. Sadly DUST started drifting to being just that.
In my ideal world a scout doesn't necessarily mean instant death to the heavy, the heavy could be a lot more aware and have more skill than the scout as well as better gear to bring things in his favor the heavy just has to be more skilled to overcome the disadvantage he's in by doing a numerous amount of things (number 1 is not being by himself)
Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks
Gallente Faction Warfare Chanel
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Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
7487
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Posted - 2014.09.05 06:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
Rusty Shallows wrote:Zatara Rought wrote:Rusty Shallows wrote:I think Heavies have had enough nerfs. Assaults have finally gotten major buffing and will be getting some more if CCP Rattati is adjusting their skill bonuses. Nerf Sentinels any more and this game is going to favor Assaults again. Assaults haven't been favored since chromosome when my vk.1 could run 2 equips with like almost 600 shields. That was the pinnacle, yet still from Uprising 1.0 to 1.7 we had Light and Heavy Frames taking a back seat to Mediums. There was no point in playing Scouts other than the love of it. With the HMG working as intended the only reason to play Sentinels was the Ishukone Assault Forgegun. I'm not really sure how else to describe one-sided nerfing and buffing. But what I am very Sure of is we are very close to slipping back into an old rut. He's still right, even back then Assaults were terrible. You're thinking about Logistics suits which were the champions of everything until they were tuned down. but Assaults have never been good as you say in Uprising.
Lucent Echelon -The Brightest Ranks
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